Because this can’t possibly go wrong, right?

Anyways, mods have repeatedly wanted the comments section here to move to the forums. So I’m making my reply to some comments there, here, as per their requests.

I’ll even put the image up so you can pretend it’s an image comment thread. There:

I AM NOT THE ARTIST


>>755526


///

Aaand my comment that I’m putting here for replies:

@Background Pony #E0D0

@Background Pony #442D
I’m not pretending that he’s a part of "shadowy MRA cabal". But, come on, you can’t deny that what he said and how he said it was sexist.

I still think getting into actual, long term relationships is absolutely equally hard for both genders. I don’t care about one night stands. Who wants their first time with another person to be a one night stand? It’s also not endearing for women to be shy, it makes men adverse to you and feel uncomfortable speaking to you because you are making the entire conversation awkward.

Maybe true for the average person, but most people I know are attracted to that. I mean, seriously, you think being shy isn’t endearing to guys? Just look at the vastly-male-demographic fandom you’re posting this in!


Define: Coy : using shyness to be more attractive (Though Fluttershy, as we know, is legitimately shy, not just coy).

To bring this issue to heart, I actually know someone who’s kind of stuck in a miserable place in their life; because of self-esteem issues and social anxiety, as well as him being tall – which is intimidating – he has more or less given up on getting a girlfriend.

@Background Pony #E0D0
>Antisocial women have the same problems antisocial men do
yeah right.[why am I supposed to look like Brad Pitt, drive Ferrari, have a body of an Olympic athlete and make more money then Obramovich only for women to even give me chance? And the only thing you have to do is say "hi" to dude for him to star proposing to you.]women have the same problems men what loude of bullshit!

Brackets added for organization (and fixed grammatical errors within them)…

Sexist, you say this comment was? It’s definitely sexist, but the thing I’m uncertain about is whether this is highlighting sexism towards men because he feels incapable of meeting society’s expectations (the [] bit), or sexist towards women for the opening and closing sentences.

You know what’s sexist? The ideals where men are supposed to be the ones who do all the fighting for the girl, who are supposed to work to support the girl, where men are supposed to pay the bills – and even before marriage, pay for the dinners – for the girl, where it’s not okay for men to be sensitive or express pain (but we have to "take it like a man"/stoicism), so the girl can lean on our shoulders, but it’s never okay for us to lean on them, and then we get drafted and sent to die in hell-on-Earth, fighting to protect the girl – right alongside millions of other men forced to fight in hell-on-Earth and die for their countries.

Heck, just thinking of it almost makes me mad at the original picture. Do women owe us anything after all that?

But nevermind, all this anti-male sexism is actually something I’m okay with. Personally, I want to be able to provide for my future wife and family to where she isn’t forced to work, and I certainly don’t want her name to ever have to appear on draft rolls, because I love her.

But, yeah, getting back on-topic to your comment; social anxiety is hard to deal with whatever gender you are, but I stand by the assertion, that at least in general, it’s something men struggle with more than women, if not just because we’re the ones society expects to "go out there and ask her." And when esteem issues enter the picture, the combination is catastrophic for someone’s personal life, as I’ve seen.

But as I said; it’s not to downplay your own problems, all that stuff I said is only a statistical-mean-sum kinda thing; it in no way represents every single case.

And, yes, the grass is certainly greener on the other side. I’ve had a great group of friends growing up most my life, but I’m not sure if it’s just me, or if it’s because these are male friendships, but generally speaking, guys don’t share the same kind of intimate friendships women do.



This actually made me tear up quite a bit, because despite having a good group of friends, I’ve hardly ever felt this emotionally intimate with any of them, because of that "stoicism" thing, where even just showing any bit of weakness or "sappiness" or anything to another guy is extremely uncomfortable.

In any case, this will probably be very interesting for you, and pretty much anyone else curious about this sort of thing.

And to be completely clear, I don’t mean to downplay your problems as an individual (all the downplay bits are referring to generalizations rather than your specific case), and I’m only sexist in the sense that I believe in being a Gentleman; ie, stoic, supporting a family, paying the bills, opening the door, etc.

I think each gender comes with its challenges, and because they’re different, it’s comparing apples and oranges to try to say "which is worse to have to put up with."

But that being said, I’d be lying if I said I haven’t wondered what It’d be like, "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," if I had been born on what seems to be the greener side of the fence, from here. Heh, my favorite episode is "Look Before You Sleep"…

Well, the only things I have to say are "fuck you, artist", I’m a guy and I’ve got a 5:0 ratio of sending females to ~friendzone~. Then one of them sexually assaulted me for not wanting to date them.

But I have a dick so clearly I was totally OK with, right?

"Maybe true for the average person, but most people I know are attracted to that. I mean, seriously, you think being shy isn’t endearing to guys? Just look at the vastly-male-demographic fandom you’re posting this in!"
Just because people like the ideal of a shy girl in a cartoon doesn’t mean it’s appealing in real life. Almost no shy women behaves, looks, or sounds like Fluttershy. Also, social anxiety is very different from being "shy", where shy can be very mild social dysfunction, social anxiety is not.

"You know what’s sexist? The ideals where men are supposed to be the ones who do all the fighting for the girl, who are supposed to work to support the girl, where men are supposed to pay the bills – and even before marriage, pay for the dinners – for the girl, where it’s not okay for men to be sensitive or express pain (but we have to "take it like a man"/stoicism), so the girl can lean on our shoulders, but it’s never okay for us to lean on them, and then we get drafted and sent to die in hell-on-Earth, fighting to protect the girl – right alongside millions of other men forced to fight in hell-on-Earth and die for their countries."
Here, you start off your sentence with "You know what’s sexist?" and list a bunch of unfair societal pressures on men. Okay. Are you trying to imply that men have it worse, or that sexism against women isn’t as serious? Because almost all of your complaints can be flipped. Women are expected to be weaker, women are expected to be financial and emotionally reliant on a man, women are expected to stay at home. The pressure against you making your own choice sucks, and both sides can be equally bad if you don’t feel like that choice is for you. Emotional men dislike the inability to be emotional. Unemotional women dislike the expectation that they are emotional. It sucks for everyone.

"Heck, just thinking of it almost makes me mad at the original picture. Do women owe us anything after all that?"
No, they don’t owe you anything after all that. Why would you think they do? Men haven’t gotten drafted in most first world countries in decades, so if you choose to fight for your country you certainly shouldn’t go in with the thought that people should owe you because of your choice.

Do you believe all men should be "stoic"?

Do you believe all men should be "supporting a family", and "paying the bills"?

Because I think that undeniably contributes to the pressure to talk to a woman first, and I think it harms everyone, men and women. If a family wants someone to work and someone to raise the children, that shouldn’t be decided because of gender. Their individual desires to work and/or raise children should be the main factor, as well as their capability.

Most feminists wont even admit that sex between two people is just a form of prostitution, whether it’s with money or a meal and nice time or even marriage (P.S. Don’t marry just for sex). Yeah, Women shouldn’t have to do it on the first date, but if they have been seeing a guy for a while and do nice things for them and seek another women for sex and they refuse to have sex with them. There’s only one thing that women is: A bitch.

From what I’ve heard of the artist she’s a typical "I hate male fans, becasuse Molestia was popular on tumblr so they much be rape culture!"
which is just a huge assumption on her part and she’s too arrogant and delusional to even listen to any argument on the subject. She’s definitely a girl that doesn’t know anything, but can just make art like this and be coddled by her drove of "Fans" that eat it up every time. Which just makes her kind of A bitch.

"Social anxiety is hard to deal with whatever gender you are, but I stand by the assertion, that at least in general, it’s something men struggle with more than women"

*Puts on psychologist hat and monocle.

I’ll start off by saying that Social Psychology is actually one of my weaker areas, I’m better in Evo, so you may have to double check this yourself. Anyway, you’re right and wrong here. Females tend to suffer from social anxiety slightly more because they tend to, psychologically speaking, focus on the "likability" and "competence" component of the "Liking, Competent, Power" triad. They strive for more social interaction, and social support, and by that metric, when things fall through they tend to suffer more distress. That being said, females are also better at forming said social nets, and thus have fail-safes to fall back on where males, whether due to societal pressure to be "manly" or to psychology, tend to lack those stronger bonds. Meaning that while females have a habit of feeling more pressure to connect, males suffer more from social isolation.

So, your first statement was right about both genders have it rough with SA, but you’re wrong that one gender suffers more. It’s more "they suffer for different reasons".

Also, if you want a little more data that casts an odd light on all this. Females tend to mostly prefer the strong, powerful, dominant looking dude when they’re ovulating, more than likely because they represent good genes. However in the off times, they tend to prefer men with softer, more "father like" features. However access to resources remains a constant. So money and a Ferrari would certainly help.

Like it or not, attractiveness is a good indicator of a lot of things. Genes man, it’s all about the genes.

@Zincy

Like it or not, attractiveness is a good indicator of a lot of things. Genes man, it’s all about the genes.

I hate myself for this sight gag, but I just could not resist.

@Background Pony #1C1C

[…]

Do you believe all men should be "stoic"?

Do you believe all men should be "supporting a family", and "paying the bills"?

[…]

Meh, I’m not one to judge how people decide to go about that.

But regardless, I feel the pressure of it. Also part of the stoicism isn’t so much living up to expectations, as much as it’s extremely socially uncomfortable to break from that. Heck, going nude would be more socially comfortable than breaking stoicism.

And yes, most of those things can be flipped, but if you flip them, then you’re saying a woman isn’t expected to do something, meanwhile the flip side is that men are expected to do something very difficult. It’s not as bad to not be expected to do something difficult as being expected to do it. For example, I have a great deal of anxiety about my future employability, and I can’t tell you how badly I’d love to have the kinds of friendships that girls routinely do, but guys don’t (ie; breaking stoicism).

That’s not to say anything extreme, though. To be clear, I’m just talking about the things I listed. I’m sure there’s a lot more, and, as I said, I don’t think one side is really better or worse, or even comparable in that kind of way (the "apples and oranges" thing) (though in my case, I sometimes wonder if I’d personally be happier on the other side; it may be apples and oranges, but I wonder if I’d personally like the taste of the other fruit better).

EDIT:

Are you trying to imply that men have it worse, or that sexism against women isn’t as serious?

As serious as what? As serious as sexism against men? If that’s the case, then neither. I’m just pointing out that sexism is not a one-way street with only one victim, and although I won’t say anti-male sentiment is worse (though with the direction a sizable chunk of culture is trending in, I wouldn’t be surprised to see it reach that point in my lifetime), but I will say it’s not what a lot of SJW’s crack it up to be. Servants are the ones who work to support another.

And also, despite all those things you pointed out (best example: "women are expected to be weaker"), modern culture – certainly Hollywood, at least – seems to love to provide plenty of counter-examples from Mulan to Marvel’s Black Widow. Heck, in movies and television nowadays, I’d be surprised to see a classic "damsel in distress."

For plenty of those strong women, there are cries of "stop writing a man with boobs", and "stop writing physically strong female characters, it’s unrealistic" – even though the strength men have in a lot of TV shows is beyond absurd as well. Either way though, I feel like TV and other media deviates far too much from reality to make for a good comparison. People allow more leniency in fiction.

People see working as a negative, and in a way I do understand. At the same time, I’m much more comfortable working than not. When you are financially dependent on another person, you’re putting a lot of power in their hands. What happens if they decide to leave you? What if they decide to unreasonably restrict your access to food, the internet/phone, etc? What if you’re in another state from all your family and friends? For me, working and supporting yourself is a positive. You have a safety net if things go wrong in your relationship.

@Background Pony #1C1C
Yeah, and most of these Feminist SJWs don’t want to work. They just want to complain and play the victim card for sympathy hand-outs, and if they can’t they try and destroy things even if they are helping women.

@Cyborg_pony
I agree some people don’t want to work, want sympathy and handouts, it’s not much of a gender thing. It’s very human thing to want something for nothing. Who would work when they could do nothing for the same results? Kinda why communism has so many issues. :P

I would be careful applying that to feminists has a whole however, because the majority are down to earth and just believe in equal rights.

@Background Pony #1C1C
I’ve seen more feminists that are bigoted and more Misogynistic then their imaginary Boogieman the Patriarchy.

Probably because average feminists don’t announce it at every opportunity like the artist of this picture. Plus, feminists saying rational things isn’t going to go viral like the crazies will.

@Cyborg_pony

I think the problem there is that it’s very easy for any pre-pubescent child to make a tumblr and/or Deviantart and spew their "Social Justice Crusade" all over the internet, and end up collectively making more of a splash on internet culture than real feminists; who are concerned more with the "in real life" culture.

@Background Pony #1C1C
That is the lingering problem with welfare system.
There needs to be a regulatory mandate that puts all able people to work for a living, whether they like it or not. Leave the welfare to those who are truly unable to work.

There needs to be variety in media. But not forced. Let the artists decide what they want to make, let them do their jobs, so the results may come out more natural. Give them feedbacks on what they can improve on. But never force things.

I could have a field day and a half with this thread, but I’m tired and about to go to sleep so I’m going to summarize:

I’ll summarize why sjw are utterly full of shit in one image:

I’ll give this thread 30 days before it gets locked due to it getting out of hand.

@Cirrus Light

But nevermind, all this anti-male sexism is actually something I’m okay with. Personally, I want to be able to provide for my future wife and family to where she isn’t forced to work, and I certainly don’t want her name to ever have to appear on draft rolls, because I love her.

Honestly I think this is fair (but I wouldn’t call conservative ideas and beliefs about the male sex to be "anti-male". It can work against a male, but isn’t designed to), though I would be careful with how far you value these traditional ideals of males. They can affect women just as they do men. Positively AND negatively.

Look at women in a more "undeveloped" society today. They tend to be discouraged from participating in the workforce outside the home (that doesn’t involve prostitution) or getting a decent education (that isn’t just basic literacy), and it isn’t just because people believe women are less capable, but also because traditional values holds men responsible for doing the paying work and putting food on the table.

And as I said, ideas about men affect women positively and negatively. Depending on what kind of lady you are, you may thank your stars that those ideas about men mean you are exempt from the pressure of participating in hard, dirty, and poorly-paid labour, or getting yourself into dangerous situations before anyone else.

Not trying to shame anyone who prefers conforming to traditional ideas about the sexes. Just suggestive that one should be aware that it can contribute to wrongful discrimination for both sexes, regardless of which you are.



@Background Pony #F7C7

I give it 2 weekends

Good luck, Thread.

To avoid getting tangled in a web of misunderstandings and speaking past one another, could we lay down and agree upon some definitions to make sure we all mean the same things with the same terms?


I propose the following:

SJW — Short for "social justice warrior"; not an actual warrior, and the social justice part is debatable. Usually found on tumblr, social network sites or deviantART. Spends unhealthy amounts of time offended, mostly over innocuous things and/or (unsolicited) on other people’s behalf.

Feminist — Women’s rights activist; ranges from genuinely egalitarian to SJW to rabidly misandristic. When you hear or read someone complaining about "feminists", it’s usually a safe bet they’re referring to the more extreme end of the spectrum.


Also, let’s preemptively refrain from using the word "feminazi", please. That one only works in the SJWs’ favor if anything.


@uc9

On that note…

One thing that gives me the shits about the SJW types how utterly devoid of perspective most of them are. Hint: If you are either non-white, or non-male, and you live in the richest, most powerful country in the world (America), then life on the whole is pretty good for you. If you’re from not-America, like 6.7 billion people, then life isn’t as good as it could be.

_{And no, this isn’t a argument from relative privation fallacy, as the SJW types I mentioned specifically point out how "tough" it is for non-white non-male people in America}

Isn’t it even more racist to make only 2 categories of race: White and POC?

I also like how they revived "not all" as a way of enforcing stereotypes and dismissing valid complaints.

I mean the KKK got a lot of millage out of "not all black people" so…..

@Tumblr Feminism Is A joke
Is there a name for that kind of logical fallacy? To make a joke about a reasonably valid point would leave a really bad impression onto you. Kinda makes you look like that either you’re grasping at straws or you can’t see an actual argument right in front of your face.

@Ebalosus

Let’s not go into who’s better or worse off, either — aside from insulting everyone else in the world, it will only make you seem defensive: "But look at how bad things are in other countries! We only discriminate against you a little bit, you can take it." is how it’s going to be perceived (and used against us).


@NotYourAverageLurker

Seems like poisoning the well by hinting at an assumption that part of a group determines all of the group. Maybe with a dash of ad hom.


Oh, and @everyone:

Just to address the elephant in the room, the message of the image that launched this kerfuffle:

"Friendzone" — A convenient shorthand for "There’s someone I’m really into, but don’t know how to approach, and they only want to be ’just friends’ but I’ll try to be a good sport about it and poke a bit of fun at myself as a coping mechanism."

Or at least that’s my understanding of the matter.

@Exhumed Legume
I meant a logical fallacy for where you intentionally make a mockery out of a fairly serviceable point to invalidate it.