Relevant to where this thread went:  

 
@HumanGhosts  
@Ihhh
 
If anyone is the Jar Jar of MLP, it’s freakin’ Grubber. Annoying, unfunny comic relief guy even his allies in the actual movie find annoying, who sticks around long after he’s stopped being relevant to the storyline.

@Supes  
Good bye, Supes :)

@CronoM  

 
Defeated by making things up that were never true? Why do you expect anyone to take it seriously when you blatantly invent things about Sunset? Or when you take something she did once or twice that many other characters have also done, and more frequently than her and extrapolate a whole unique personality trait out of that? It’s called scraping the bottom of the barrel. You’re trying to rectoactively justify thinking Sunset was a good character by inventing a headcanon that’s no more based in the show than most fandom headcanons.
 
If these arguments have been defeated, you sure are doing a poor job of representing exactly how. Of course, you’re gonna claim either that you weren’t trying or that I’m dismissing the rock-solid facts you present, but if you didn’t care to try, you shouldn’t have kept responding, and if you wanted me not to dismiss your statements, you should’ve made statements that had any weight to them. Simple.
 
Instead you hide behind the majority opinion, as if that was ever a good argument.
 
What have I omitted? Only things you’re inventing out of thin air. What have I spun negatively? Nothing, I’m only stating everything that happened with Sunset in a concise way. Bland-ish villain with some potential, hit by rainbow, suddenly a fantastic person with no flaws or personality and all of her backstory never mentioned again. I’ve yet to see anyone be able to challenge this synopsis.
 

 
It has, but then I saw an actually well written reformed villain, took a look back at what was in the movies and what was just in my head and realized that Sunset actually IS a badly written character.
 
Nobody could ever point out any personality traits she might have without resorting to speculation, fanon and so much stretching that it would make Dhalsim jealous. Nobody could ever point out a single personality flaw of hers besides “she got angry a few times at people who deserved it” (as if that is somehow unique to her) or “she’s not literally perfect at some stuff” (stuff might include trivial things that nobody is perfect at, but when it’s Sunset it’s a deep character flaw). Nobody could ever say anything about her personality beyond describing a painfully generic everyday nice person. You had many comments to make at least a decent case for her, but all I see are the same weak arguments that rely on borderline fanfiction to hold any water.
 

 
It would’ve been worthless nonsense if it didn’t make infinitely more sense than any of your (and others’) attempts to present Sunset as well-written. If you didn’t still have glitter in your eyes from Rainbow Rocks, you’d likely be able to see that there are at least traces of truth in my interpretation for most cases of people liking Sunset. At the very least, nobody’s ever given a convincing reason to like her that went beyond what I described.
 
Of course, you can’t believe that your points are bad, so surely because I’m not convinced it means that I would never even give her a chance. Oh, but wait? Didn’t I say I had started off liking Sunset and only realized how bad she was when I got some perspective on things? That’s right, I had said that! But you’re choosing to ignore that too, because of course the majority is always correct and Sunset can’t be a badly written character, it’s just that I magically happen to be incapable of appreciating her despite being a fan of both reformed villains and EqG in general.
 
Give me a break.
 
Anyway, since you will clearly not be any different from the other Sunset fans I’ve tried talking to and will not present any good points, I don’t feel like reading any more sad drivel and am gonna unsubscribe from this discussion - I highly doubt you’ve been saving any good arguments for last. Good luck beating conspiracy nuts in your ability to see things and connections where there are none.
 
@Ihhh  
IKR? Apparently nobody who disagrees with the majority has any moral right believe themselves correct. Good thing that writing quality as well as content of animated movies is decided by democracy.

@Ihhh  
Nope. :D Everyone’s got his/her own problems but his mess is his mess.
 
See ya.

@CronoM  
Woah dude, projecting and hypocritical much?

@Supes
 

 
And there you have it.
 
The reason why it would be pointless to converse with you.
 
Your generalization is that all Sunset defences from people are deluded.
 
You believe you are the special snowflake that sees Sunset as a bad character and that everyone else is wrong, yet your arguments consist only of negative spins and omissions.
 
People have defeated whatever “arguments” exist in your case time after time, but it bears no relevance to you, mostly because the bulk of your argument is negative spins on her story you want to latch onto. You’ve dismissed positive spins completely on preference alone.  
You believe you are the right one and everyone else is wrong. It’s a sad mindset.
 
You don’t talk to people to learn from people, only preach, because as you said, the Sunset defences are deluded.
 
Your one of thr sole voices of reason afterall, and the rest of the fandom just got duped.
 
:/
 
The very idea that Sunset actually IS a well written character yet everything about her just happens to strike with you badly on a personal level, has likely never occured to you.
 
People have personal preferences, preferences we often don’t choose but come naturally to us, that some often mistake for more objective and worldly agreed upon truths.
 
Of course, you live in a world where the fandom likes Sunset more then not. And in a moderately picky fandom no less. This is an actual fact.
 
So your rationalization for this situation? This worthless nonsense.
 
You just have to accept the fact that everything about Sunset rubs you personally the wrong way.
 
Goodbye. I do indeed hope you’ll keep your promise about avoiding discussions like this again. It would be better for all involved.

@CronoM  
I’m aware of the other perspectives, yes, and I also believe they are deluded. I believe RR duped most of the Sunset fandom into liking her despite her characterization from that point on being severely lacking.
 
The corridor thing only happened once. The temper she has isn’t worse than many other characters in the show. Neither is the sassiness. If this pitiful attempt is the best you can say about her personality, well, that only reinforces the point that she has none at all. Because by this standard most of the mane6 have anger issues plaguing them.
 
“She grew up believing that she was better then everyone else because that was her life”  
“Tears were flowing from her eyes as every bit of goodness was stripped away from her and she hated it.”  
This is pure headcanon and not based on any solid evidence. Just like with her “personality”, it’s your fantasy filling in the blanks. Or, one big blank in this case.
 
I’m a bit appalled you even try to defend Sunset, a total newbie and former bully, out-friendshipping Twilight. The rest of her friends being better than her at friendship is outright false. Twilight has her faults, sure, but it’s her that usually has to remind others that they’re all good friends and how friendship works. It’s her that’s usually the driving force behind their friendship. Starlight is interesting because she has trouble adjusting her old habits and learning about friendship and how to be a good person. Sunset is not interesting because she was turned into a good person magically and doesn’t go through any interesting trouble at all.
 
The explanation for Sunset being more universally liked is simple. One, she was the first. Two, Rainbow Rocks was amazing and New Sunset was such a strong case of (rather blatant) sympathy bait that most people fell for it just because of how much nicer and kinder she was, not because she was deep or interesting then or at any point afterwards (she wasn’t). Three, the kicking off point of Reformed Starlight, her backstory reveal, was underwhelming and caused many people to have a knee-jerk reflex of hating Starlight. Heck, I liked Sunset originally, but I gave Starlight a chance because I love all reformed villains and after seeing how a proper reformee is done, I realized that Sunset was a fumbled first attempt and all of her pesonality we think we know comes from fanfics.
 
Your defences of Sunset’s utterly lacking character are also pretty typical. It pretty much always involves making up some personality traits she doesn’t actually have based on something she does once or twice across all the movies and shorts we have, as well as putting too much value in the first five minutes of Rainbow Rocks where we saw some students scowl at her, as if that makes her deep or interesting at all. And of course some fanon presented as fact, such as the satan transformation tears not being from simple physical pain.
 
But yes, this will clearly go nowhere. I’ve just had a similar, um, discussion with pretty much the same arguments a few weeks ago and to be honest I don’t care quite enough to go through it again. I even said anything because your idea of the term “glimmered” as opposed to basing it on what went on with Sunset was even more ridiculous than the usual “Sunset is deep” and “Starlight is a pale imitation” nonsense. And, well, I usually try to get some good arguments out of Sunset fans, because I love EqG and would love to appreciate Sunset more, but most of the time I don’t get anything besides fantasy and it goes just like this.

@Supes  
“Sunset’s change of demeanor and personality is much more drastic and jarring than Starlight’s, that’s hardly even debatable.”
 
And yet, many disagree with you wholeheartedly. Its why Starlight’s a divisive character, why Sunset quite clearly isn’t, and why you feign ignorance since you like her enough to debate on her behalf. Many find both different, but Sunset’s to have transitioned infinitely better.
 
“ with the fact”
 
You have a strange way of using the word ‘fact’ for ‘one of many perspectives you already know about’. This is not a few days after Rainbow Rocks has been shown, its obvious your blatantly aware of the other defensible perspectives quite the opposite of your own.
 
-She has a temper that gets her into trouble that she can’t always control, she’s extremely sassy, and she likes confronting her adversaries in abandoned corridors. That hasn’t changed. Her mental age hasn’t gone into reverse like Starlight did, who, twisted ideology aside, is a lot more oblivious and less intelligent then her Machiavellian former cult leader self.
 
-She has a flare for the dramatic pre and post reform, she could do the high school level evil, however when it came to going full Dio-kills-dogs-for-fun evil, she couldn’t go through with it, and tried to compromise(in her own way) so she could fulfill her ambitions. She grew up believing that she was better then everyone else because that was her life, being the personal student of the sun goddess of Equestria. Like Pony Twilight, that environment #%#^ed her up in the head but people react to it in different ways. Sunset gained an Alexander the Great complex, and Twilight has a hyper-dependency complex that persists even in Season 7.
 
-EG1 Human Sunset doesn’t like EG1 Sunset Satan. Tears were flowing from her eyes as every bit of goodness was stripped away from her and she hated it. Her human mind was trapped in the hell pit of hate until she was freed by magic. You might find this shocking, but the average bully will not enjoy suddenly having the morality of the next Hitler, even if just for a couple of moments.
 
-The entire student body hates her guts except for the Humane 5 in RR, yet the Humane 5 are honest enough to tell her she was horrid in the past. This is one of the best case scenarios possible for developing growth and morality for someone who got a taste of being pure evil for a couple minutes and didn’t like the monster inside her at all. It didn’t stop her from nearly throttling Trixie in RR when she lost her patience, but that’s part of her persisting issues.
 
-Of course she knows more about friendship better then the princess. After turning over a new leaf, she’s opened up her heart to her friends, not just Celestia. Applejack, Fluttershy, Rainbow Dash, Rarity, Pinkie Pie, (pony and human) and Reformed Sunset all know friendship better then Pony Twilight. Hers is not a high bar. Amending Fences was a turning point for Twilight in realizing that learning about friendship was a lot different then actually embracing it to heart, and facing her faults in this regard caused by her lack of empathy in the past was, in her own words, harder then fighting Tirek or anything. SHE. HAS. ISSUES. And the writers aren’t in a rush to help her grow further with a few exceptions.
 
….
 
This conversation has been done to death a million times, and nothing you have said so far has been in any way unique or subverted by better arguments.
 
Like I said before, I’m not interested in buying the same, dull argument over and over again. In the future with other people that you will surely accost for disliking divisive characters like Starlight Glimmer, can you at least drop the act that your pretending you aren’t aware of equal or better arguments then your own?
 
You are NEVER going to be some special snowflake that shows every Starlight critic is wrong where others have also failed. Your argument is not an interesting purchase, and I am not in the mood. So let’s just agree to disagree.

@CronoM  
What does a “warming up period” have to do with the fact that Sunset got pretty much brainwashed from a selfish, power-hungry bully to a meek little angel who already knows how to friendship better than the princess, and Starlight was reformed with actual words instead of rainbow lasers and retained a lot of her personality after the fact? Sunset’s change of demeanor and personality is much more drastic and jarring than Starlight’s, that’s hardly even debatable.

@Supes  
Nah, I’ll remain accurate about it if you don’t mind. (shrug)
 
Instead of a warming up period like we see starting at the beginning of RR, S6E1 everyone already trusts Starlight with their lives and the age estimate for the machevellian cult leader goes down from 25-30 to 20-25 with the unworldy, more childlike Starlight.
 
So yeah, it’s better to actually be accurate to what I say instead of being ‘accurate’ to some nobody over the Internet I don’t know says. If your interested in selling an argument today, I’m not interested in buying.

@CronoM  
Sure, if you wanna be wrong about it…

@Josh103  
Indeed. Although as we’ve just noted, the comparisons are limited for several reasons, one of which being Hit is from a different universe. And Jiren is from a 2nd completely different universe. The idea that they’d create another unicorn with absolutely no association to the main characters, princesses or any present character yet have even more magic is (almost) too hard to believe. I guess they could always go the route of a villain attaining their perfect form again, but we’re sorta talking about unicorns/warriors less then a million years old for dbz of a thousand for mlp. Similar age warriors to the main characters.
 
For a unicorn mare, I honestly find Tempest to be the closest fit for the role so far even if the comparison falls a little short. Cause even though she wasn’t played up to be THAT strong, she was a physically imposing unicorn mare and the idea that a broken unicorn’s horn would turn all their magic into maximized offensive magic,(putting in a lot of what-ifs here) plus if the character was pre-god potential (Celestia or Luna type, would need a backstory overhaul to justify that) and lived in the Badlands for all her life where most ponies wouldn’t dare tread yet she thrived as the strongest.
 
I guess what I’m saying is that if they merged Storm King and Tempest’s role into one Tempest who didn’t NEED orbs to defeat the princesses but only did it to give her already insane power access to all magic again, allowing her to controll Equestria, not just conquer it. There can be some well written stories on a character who is the strongest and wants to dominate and rule but lacks the magical ability of certain gods to do so.
 
But yeah, likely no Jiren comparison coming up….
 
….I mean, sure, Rainbow Dash can kill ponies with micro nuclear kinetic collisions and move Speed Force fast now, but the show never seems to care about any nonmagical abilities despite it being the SOLE reason the ambush on the 4 princesses in the movie’s opening act didn’t work.
 
(Srsly, that bugs me the more they make it obvious. If RD is the sole cause of the Mane 6 becoming heroes due to cutie marks, reinforced again in S5, and if magic and magic traps are so powerful for even gods yet completely unaccounted non magical power ruins the plan instantly with speed the villains can’t even see…
 
“You thought you caught the 4th princess, my pal Twi, with the orbs that not even Celestia and Luna could escape? Nope, you just captured a local friend dressed like an alicorn Ill break out later. Oh, you didn’t see me switch them? Like, at all? Well I guess you should be worrying about all the invaders I’m about to be knocking out now that you can’t even react to, yourself included. And since its all either off screen of super fast, it still counts as light PG. Oh wait, Twilights been given a completely worthless quest for a relic with only a minor advantage from a kingdom we aren’t even allies with? Guess you guys win temporarily instead.”
 
…Maybe the heroes and villains should pay more attention to this mare.)

*glimmered

@CronoM  

 
That sounds like “Shimmered” would be a much better name for it…

@CronoM  
To complete the comparison, now we need a new magical unicorn mare who completely blows Starlight out of the water. Starlight even tries to use the cutie mark replacement spell once while fighting her, only for it to fail almost entirely because this mare is just THAT powerful. Even Rainbow Power’d Twilight is only able to stalemate with the unicorn.

The comparisons are there but….
 
While Hit might be an insane oddity considering the weaker members of his universe at the time of introduction, that’s the thing, it’s his universe.
 
An entirely different universe with no reason for involvement beyond cross dimension disputes. He’s been the “undefeated/goku” in his dimension for a 1000 years, but instead of the profession of goofy fight enthusiast, it’s assasination, meaning most guys who try to become top dog aren’t around anymore. Maybe even Vados suggested him to be god of destruction a few times just like Whis does to Goku a few times? I feel like Champa knows exactly how strong Hit is, and that his own god of destruction abilities are the only leverage he has against Hit if it came to a fight.
 
Suddenly Hit’s thrown several times into an arena where killing is not allowed, out of his normal comfort zone, he finds some worthy fighters…and he kind of sorta likes it. He isn’t going from killer to saint in an instant, but he’s open about it enough that he’s whole hearted about it…but in his own silent way, like faking a fall. No 180s in personality.
 
Starlight wasn’t the element of magic from another dimension that was beyond salvaging (that would of been an awesome alternate backstory if the story was setup well). She’s from our Equestia. She’s this powerful but nobody ever heard of her. Her flaws are the ones that don’t often make good stories, some of them enhanced versions of Twilight and Celestia’s faults,(the whole Celestia to Twilight to Starlight line is filled with Writers Pet syndrome) and some just her being only lukewarm and half hearted about friendship lessons. No resolve or stubbornness in either direction.
 
I feel the nonexistant season 5.5, the timeskip from villain to trusted friend, had more interesting scenarios then anything Reformed Starlight’s shown so far.
 
If Hit reappeared at the 2nd tournament with a cheery personality, sounding 5 (biological) years younger and more naive, I would think he’d been “glimmered” to an extent.
 
Like I said at the beginning, there are comparisons to be made. They were both introduced very late in the chronology of the series and seem to exist to set the mortal bar high again, ridiculously high even. But I think that for Hit, the writers were determined to give effort in justifying his existance and having him be his own thing. Sort of like Pikkon was in the DBZ filler, but much more ambitious.

@Background Pony #276A  
Okay. I love your enthusiasm. But please use a comma. I’m getting winded just trying to read that.

hit is the best mercenary of his universe with 1000 years of age with many skills and tricks basically a living swiss army knife and despite being a murderer he has a great sense of honor which shows in his fight with goku by refusing to comply with orders and resigning to the material goods offered by Champa demonstrating to the gods that he is not a puppet that they can handle at will  
in the power tournament he would show his more strategic side being the leader of the universe 6 eliminating several opponents and saving his comrades even sacrificing in their confrontation with jiren  
like starlight glimmer if you want to compare?

Wow, I thought you were trying to make a meme nickname for Hitler.

@HumanGhosts  
I’m sorry, no. Even if you don’t like starlight, she is nothing like jar jar.

Oh look, people with bad taste in characters are crawling out of the woodwork again!

I don’t know what “Hit” is, but I’d describe her as the Jar Jar Binks of FiM.

nah, she is jiren

mmm no hit is maud