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Yeah, not sure where my brain was that night.
It’s. The ’ is real small
Massive massive derail involving a tech nerd and… someone with sociopolitical opinions apparently, heh.
Don’t worry, it’s over.
@redweasel
We’re biologically programmed to want to reproduce. It doesn’t mean some people don’t decide otherwise for various reasons. Would I like to have a kid? Yes, one day. Would I like one now? No. Too much time and effort and there are things I still want to do in my life that would be hard or impossible while raising and taking care of a child. The biological urge is still there, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to have a kid right now, even if I were in a relationship. We’re not machines with hardwired code we can’t ignore.
Surveys have known an increase in the amount of people who are choosing (that’s a critical word there) not to have kids, for various reasons. In some cases the person has family that will continue to carry the family name and genes, so it’s not like their family line is going to die out with them.
Yeah, I’m not even going to reply to that considering it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a technology, you’re trying to make it into a sociopolitical issue.
I said given the ability to do anything they want with no consequences of any kind, safety or otherwise, from the comfort of their own home, that a good chunk of people would prefer to use that instead of going out into the real world. And that would harm society as a whole over time.
You continuously refuse to understand the separation of fiction here. You’re arguing against my point because it didn’t happen in Star Trek. I mean, what do you expect? For the series to not exist because if the writers put serious thought into it they’d realize how harmful such an invention would’ve been? Just because the show doesn’t depict society taking a huge downswing it doesn’t mean the thing wouldn’t have real, actual consequences if it were made real.
You’ve been going on as if the actual issues surrounding them were a non-issue and that addictions to such things were the result of evil corporations leveraging to control people rather than accept that humans do have faults with self-regulation, or something.
Anyway, back to perky pony pussy for everyone else.
so we’re biologically programmed to want kids, and biologically programmed to not want kids? I’m not saying vidya isn’t absolutely horrible and very effective mind control. I’m saying your assumptions for what a holodeck must be are biased by that, to make holodecks more evil than they are. the biggest problem’s not me, nor the holodeck. the problem is the people who have the power to control me. until they’re reined in, it won’t matter if we have a holodeck or not. they’ll figure out some way to force us all to lose at their gain.
Considering the name holodeck was first coined for Star Trek, I didn’t realize there was an issue as to what exactly we were discussing.
Lots of people want kids because we’re biologically-programmed to want kids. Your sexual drive itself is nothing more than evolution’s biological programming. Otherwise species wouldn’t get anywhere.
But that doesn’t mean everyone wants kids. In fact, surveys have shown that there are an increasing amount of people over the years who don’t.
Wha? You think I’m saying game developers aren’t explicitly using the Skinner box effect? No, my point was YOU are biologically capable of being addicted to something and won’t just “stop doing (thing)” as if we all have iron-strong self-regulation. You appear to think that every single person would voluntarily stop something they find enjoyable just because it has detrimental effects. We’ve got countless cases where this has proven to not be true. Going back to my example of MMOs, there have been people who literally lost their homes because they stopped working, stopped doing everything just to play them all day. In one sad case a couple neglected their baby to the point of it dying, while they played an MMO.
People are terrible at self-regulation. I used MMOs as an example of why “people will just stop” was wrong. Not to get into a separate subject on the culpability of game designers. Also: dopamine. Look it up. That’s not “victim-blaming”, that’s the chemical you get addicted to. Your body produces it, and starts to crave more of it the more you get.
I think you’re forgetting Star Trek is still fiction. That’s like saying magic couldn’t work like it does in Harry Potter because some crazy wizards would just take over the world.
And they still acknowledged how addictive holodecks were. Not only is it mentioned multiple times, but there was a character who was built around being neurotic and severely addicted to holodecks, to the point where he was socially-stunted(!) and barely able to function around other people because he was completely and utterly addicted and only felt comfortable in them. He also had sexual hangups and serious relationship issues because he found dating and socializing awkward and unbearable and resorted to relying on the holodeck for sexual needs (ding ding ding!) Even after getting over his addiction, he was still having social and relationship issues years later. He is a perfect example of what very well would happen with a lot of people.
There was also a later episode of DS9 where a character suffered PTSD from losing a limb and having it replaced who retreated into a holodeck initially as a form of emotional therapy and distraction from his injury who eventually became so fearful of the outside world and potentially suffering another injury that he started living in it, and refused to leave. The holodeck had to be shut down and disabled to get him to even entertain the idea of reentering normal life. And the person who shut it down and kept it off? A self-aware hologram who realized he couldn’t survive like that.
You’re saying holodecks didn’t end civilization on Star Trek as some sort of proof of their harmlessness, yet you miss the fact that it’s hammered on again and again that holodecks can be extremely harmful to one’s social and mental health. They stress how you have to be careful not to become dependent on them, and use them as intended: occasional recreation and enjoyment. You’re missing the forest for the trees. This is a show about how near-perfect human society has become, with almost every issue affecting humanity from diseases to racism to poverty to hunger to crime being solved, yet they’re still going “Be careful of holodecks, know your limit and don’t become too dependent on them.” And you think a society like ours wouldn’t have an issue? Hahahaha, that’s crazy.
At some point I think this went from my initial statement about “having the ability to do anything you wanted at any time without ever leaving your home would become severely addicting and would harm society over a long period of time” into some kind of pseudo-political argument from you.
You think just because they’re aliens they’re any easier to fuck? Some species would rather kill you than talk to you. Others would be physically incompatible with humans. Both issues also solvable by holodecks.
Dude, what? Seriously, this entire discussion is already off-topic as hell and stuff like this is like an anchor dragging it even deeper. That’s not even a thousand miles within scope of what this topic is about.
Additionally, holodecks can provide food via matter replication. Uses the same technology food replicators do. In fact a good chunk of the stuff you interact with on the holodeck uses matter replication rather than holograms. This was explained in the first season of TNG, no less. As for children? Biological ones, no. Simulated ones? Yes. There was an episode or two about that very thing.
No offense man, but I’ve noticed in lots of your discussions (both with myself, and other people) you tend to make massive assumptions and make statements of fact based on personal opinions. Like, you’re trying to tell me there’s exactly one human being on this planet who would want to live on a holodeck if they were reality. Just one? Out of 7 billion people? I know people who would live in certain MMOs if they were real worlds right this very minute.
Again, completely irrelevant to what we’re discussing. Also, I’m not going on opinion here. We have countless verified cases of people being unable to self-regulate. I mean for the love of whatever holy deity you believe in, we’ve got people playing games for so long they drop dead in their chairs. We’ve got people who will do something until they’ve lost their wife, kids and even their home because they refused to do anything else and their life went to shit yet they didn’t care. Those are just two examples.
Anyway, this is a shit ton of off-topic stuff not about the image. My original point was that given the ability to do whatever they want with no concerns about safety (or money, or anything at all) lots of people would fall into that and never come out. This is not opinion, this is fact based on real, actual life examples we’ve had for hundreds of years.
We’re not going to come to any kind of agreement here, especially with you repeatedly using personal opinion as fact.
We should return this comment section to people who would rather read and make comments about posturing pleasant palatable pony pussy.
oh, you specifically mean star trek holodecks. that’s a bit more specific.
there are plenty of non-addictive video games out there. they just don’t make any money.
really the problem is money. if you make a game that gives some guy a heart attack, you get to keep the $20 a month he paid. we need something more like reputation or friendship, so that if someone scams you they don’t get to keep the reward.
plus opium was ridiculously legal up until like a hundred years ago.
seriously though, millions of people are denied the right to have a family, and we don’t have holodecks. the danger here is not the holodeck. the danger is a power imbalance severe enough that a few assholes can afford to ruin millions of lives for profit by getting everyone too busy and hooked on vidya to have sex.
the doctrine of sin is so fucked up…
Assumptions? You do realize that holodecks have existed in the franchise for over 30 real life years, and their technology (and limitations) have been thoroughly explained and explored in-show, in novels and comics, various games and in multiple official technical manuals, right?
I’m assuming nothing. I know more about the fictional technology in the show than most people, believe me. I can bore you with multiple paragraphs on how the imaging system alone worked. I can bring you up a schematic of the guts in the system. Trek writers always strived for the technology to be on this side of just realistic enough to be believable, so while the technology is still firmly fictional, how it was supposed to and did function is fully-documented.
You’re assuming everyone wants children in the first place. Secondly, reprogramming it to NOT be addictive? What? That’s now how that works. Addiction of that sort lies in YOU, not the technology. Take MMOs for example, they operate on what is called the Skinner box effect. In short, certain repeated actions are rewarded, and it releases a chemical in your brain which is highly pleasurable. The addiction is when you continue playing long-term so you can keep having that release.
The closest thing you can do is to make whatever you’re experiencing boring, which defeats the purpose. It’s kind of like saying all you need to do to diet is to start eating bland foods. It doesn’t work that way. You’ll still want stuff that tastes good. And considering there are people who will sit and play video games until they literally die from a heart attack (unsurprisingly, one case was a South Korean who played StarCraft for 18+ hours straight with no breaks) or eat until they literally cannot move anymore, you’re expecting an awful lot of self-regulating on the behalf of the person. No one’s going to take a highly enjoyable thing like an “All Your Fantasies Made Real Free Fuck Buddy” and then just walk away for no reason.
Non-equal examples. Opium is an illegal drug in most countries, and highly restricted. You can’t just walk into the corner drug store and pick up some opium then go down to a bar and zone out. Before it became illegal it did do damage to society. Just not on the scale that we’re talking about with holodecks.
I find it funny how you say I’m assuming a lot about a fictional technology, when said fictional technology is highly documented in its fictional workings, yet you’re making massive assumptions yourself. Like, assuming every person on Earth is already in a relationship, or that every person on Earth only wants two kids (tell that to the Mormons alone who have dozens and dozens of kids due to their religious beliefs) or how many children are necessary for the population to maintain itself.
Ding, ding, ding. Millions of people are in the same situation. “Hello, holodeck? You may not give me an actual solution to that problem, but I sure as hell will enjoy trying to relieve it as much as possible!”
There’s a saying “Money doesn’t buy happiness but you sure can try.” A holodeck won’t solve the loneliness long-term, but it’ll definitely take care of some more immediate needs. And you’re still leaving out the fantasy aspect. I don’t care how rich, successful or popular you are, you’ll never get to fuck an alien, or a pony (from MLP, that is) or insert whatever other species/race you have as a fetish. With a holodeck, you could.
That’s what you’re not getting. With a holodeck, you could program literally anything. Your imagination is the limit. Want someone who’s totally submissive? Someone who’s dominating? Something inbetween? Anything you want, in every conceivable combination or situation is yours for the asking. You could bang Neytiri from Avatar while skydiving with the Terminator and then land in a hot tub with Sunset Shimmer who proceeds to give you a handjob while Starlight watches. That could never happen in real life, but it could happen in a holodeck.
And you think no one would prefer that “reality” over real life?
We’ve already experienced technology that has had a similar effect on our lives. Before television people got out more. We didn’t stay at home sitting for hours at a time watching a box. And after the invention of video games, kids started spending more and more time inside. Now if you ratchet that up by a million-fold and gave someone the ability to do whatever their imagination wanted, safely, you’d be crazy if you think there wouldn’t be a huge dip in real life activity.
tl;dr: You cannot trust people to self-regulate. Not even in Star Trek, where “holodeck addiction” is a real thing. Not everyone has the same desires as you as far as reproduction and relationships go. Some people would very happily live out their entire lives in a computer-generated fantasy, and there would be a real danger to the core of society if such an technology existed, especially as readily available (for free!) like it is in Star Trek.
you’re making a lot of assumptions about what holodecks can or cannot do. but I think if they can’t feed you, then you’d leave to eat. if they can’t give you children, you’d leave to fuck. if they’re addictive, you’d reprogram them so they aren’t.
opium is the oldest drug second only to alcohol. it’s awful and it will fuck you up, but if it was any sort of existential threat to society, then we would have all gone extinct around 3000 B.C. you know what’s had a profound effect on the world? restriction of the opium trade! that’s what starts wars. you know what stops the spread of opium? education about how it’s a horrible drug that will fuck you up, and how doctors who prescribe it to non-terminal patients oughta be shot. you know what happens when people aren’t forced into horrible lives of toil and slavery by their wealthy multinational masters? they stop getting hooked on opium! despair is the real gateway drug here, and the drug itself is just… a side effect of it.
big whoop. human population is already growing double exponentially, yet everyone’s so afraid of people deciding not to have enough babies. you know what happens when women get the right not to be imprisoned and raped, and reliable birth control is available? birth rates plummet… down to about 2 per couple. they tend to dip a little lower than that, which is a problem in industrialized nations, but that doesn’t mean we’re all spiraling into oblivion. take away some of the enforced isolation corporations put on us, and I think population would grow or shrink as needed.
so what, a holodeck exists, suddenly birth rates go down to 2 a couple, because that’s all the babies everyone wants to have, since it’s all the babies we need to have. that’s my prediction.
people think we’re all ego monsters, but the fact is it’s not sexy when someone does everything that we want. even doms get off to insubordination. people’d “dictate” that the computer decide, since what they want isn’t a masturbation aid, but someone else to be with.
Edited
Feed you? Only if replicator technology is also present, which I assume it would be since it goes hand-in-hand with holodecks (not everything is a hologram, despite the name.)
Give you children? Only fake ones. It’s bad for culture and society, not so much the individual person on a physical level.
The discovery of opium had a profound effect on the world. Major conflicts between countries occurred because of it. And many hundreds of thousands of people died either directly or indirectly. Opium dens saw people spending days, months sometimes years zoned out. Pretty much like a holodeck would do. And then the drug was used to create even worse drugs which had horrible, horrible consequences on society. You picked a pretty poor analogy when trying to say it wouldn’t be so bad.
I think you are vastly underestimating the appeal of a holodeck. Just using sex for example, let’s say you’re single and horny. You want to get laid and your options are to find a willing partner that conforms to your ideals, date them and hope to successfully get into their pants or you can dictate your desires to the computer, even completely fictional ones, and get a ready, willing partner with no commitment issues at the blink of an eye.
Yeah, birth rates would probably plummet.
people would stop to do things that a holodeck can’t do, such as feed you, or give you children. and if it can feed you and give you children, then why is it so bad to stay there?
a more apt comparison than condoms might be opium. opium can make you feel awesome, yet very few people partake of it, for the same reason that a holodeck wouldn’t be the end of the world: because most people over the age of 5 can put off short term pleasure to accomplish long term goals.
Have you actually used condoms? They decrease your sensitivity quite a bit, plus they’re considered a hassle. They’re unpopular because of those two reasons. That’s not an equal comparison at all.
Imagine we had home holodecks. Want to fly through the air like a bird? Live out your favorite movie or book? Do absolutely anything you want in complete safety? All doable at a simple voice command.
Now imagine you could fuck whatever you wanted. From the ideal dream girl, to the most exotic alien imaginable. Want to fuck a pony? Sure. You can have your favorite character complete with their show-accurate personality just begging for your dick/vag/whatever. No hangups. No commitment. No dating. No time or money investments. Just tell the computer what you want, and start shagging.
If you think the capability to do any of those things in the safety and comfort of your home whenever you wanted wouldn’t result in serious harm to society, I’m afraid you might have trouble seeing long-term consequences.
it’s a common corporate lie that everyone would rot in their chairs if they didn’t have slave masters whipping them to work every day, but the truth is people like to do things. the only difference a holodeck would have is they’d do less dangerous stuff for fun. anything the holodeck couldn’t provide, people’d be motivated to do. (and any who weren’t would get bred out of the gene pool.)
it’s like saying condoms would be the death of our species, because everyone’d be having safe sex instead of risking kids.
It can’t last forever. May as well go out with a wet, sticky, super technologically advanced bang.
I saw a person once say that if we were ever to invent holodecks as depicted on Star Trek, it would be the end of our civilization. Because no one would do anything anymore. Why take risks when you could do stuff like climb the highest mountains, descend into the deepest depths, race at breakneck speeds or dogfight in planes without actually risking your safety?
As an extension to that, being able to create the perfect partner that is not only completely willing to fulfill your every desire but doesn’t need to confirm to human limits or physics at all means that many people will willingly remove themselves from the gene pool, content with their holographic love toy.
I have to agree with that assessment. Society would be greatly damaged by such an invention. Not that I wouldn’t enjoy having them myself, but still.
>Prefering real girls to virtual ones.
>Not working hard to develop the world’s first hardlight waifu.
Damnit, Neko! We’ve talked about this! Stop holding our species back! Do you want the other species to laugh at us when we make it into space and don’t have hardlight waifus like all the cool species?
Edited
Not with that attitude
Anal is disgusting.